Friday, February 11, 2011

Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus

I know a few people today who I would call, "lone ranger" Christians.  They like Christ, but not the Church.  They are opposed to "institutional" Christianity. They would rather be by themselves, and not in attendance at a local congregation. It's just them, their bibles, and the Holy Spirit.

However, I think that not only is this a dangerous position to be in, but also a denial of what Christianity is.

The Latin phrase "Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus" means: "Outside the Church there is no salvation". The Catholic Catechism on this issue rightly says, "all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body." This expression comes from the writings of Saint Cyprian of Carthage, a bishop of the 3rd century. The Eastern Orthodox, the Roman Catholics, and the Protestants all agree with this statement.

An prominent Eastern Orthodox bishop, Kallistos Ware, has expressed this teaching as follows:

"Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus. All the categorical strength and point of this aphorism lies in its tautology. Outside the Church there is no salvation, because salvation is the Church" (G. Florovsky, "Sobornost: the Catholicity of the Church", in The Church of God, p. 53). Does it therefore follow that anyone who is not visibly within the Church is necessarily damned? Of course not; still less does it follow that everyone who is visibly within the Church is necessarily saved. As Augustine wisely remarked: "How many sheep there are without, how many wolves within!" (Homilies on John, 45, 12) While there is no division between a "visible" and an "invisible Church", yet there may be members of the Church who are not visibly such, but whose membership is known to God alone. If anyone is saved, he must in some sense be a member of the Church; in what sense, we cannot always say."

Martin Luther said on this subject:

"Therefore he who would find Christ must first find the Church. How should we know where Christ and his faith were, if we did not know where his believers are? And he who would know anything of Christ must not trust himself nor build a bridge to heaven by his own reason; but he must go to the Church, attend and ask her. Now the Church is not wood and stone, but the company of believing people; one must hold to them, and see how they believe, live and teach; they surely have Christ in their midst. For outside of the Christian church there is no truth, no Christ, no salvation."

John Calvin, in the Institutes of the Christian Religion said, "beyond the pale of the Church no forgiveness of sins, no salvation, can be hoped for". Calvin wrote also that "those to whom God is a Father, the Church must also be a mother."

The idea is further affirmed in the Westminster and London Baptist Confessions of Faith that "the visible Church is the Kingdom of the Lord Jesus Christ, the house and family of God, out of which there is no ordinary possibility of salvation."

11 comments:

Jeph said...

Does this mean we need to join a local congregation/church/particular sect in order to be saved?

Matthew said...

Hey Jeff.

Thanks for responding.

I would be quick to say that joining a local congregation/church/particular sect doesn't save you. Look at the thief on the cross. He couldn't join anything.

However, I would hold that being part of a local congregation is a command of Scripture. (Hebrews 10:24-25) Many other commands in the New Testament make no sense if you are not part of a local congregation. The local congregation is the visible catholic Church.

A person who is saved and refuses to attend a local congregation would be disobedient. One of the signs of being a Christian is that Christians obey. Cows moo, dog's bark, cats meow, and Christians obey. Obviously we still have the flesh to crucify daily and do battle with (Romans 7), but a Christian obeys.

That's why I said that a person who is a lone ranger is in a dangerous position. Any time you are in disobedience to the Lord your are in a dangerous position.

Being part of a local congregation is a vital part of what it means to be a Christian and a major way we live the Christian life. It is very dangerous to consciously deny a vital part of the Christian life and experience.

Thanks,
Matt

Catholic Mission said...

THE GREAT BAPTISM OF DESIRE HOAX : FROM THE MOST HOLY FAMILY MONASTERY, CATHOLIC ANSWERS,USCCB,PONTIFICAL UNIVERSITIES AND SEMINARIES TO NUMEROUS OTHERS TODAY
I can infer that the baptism of desire is unknown to us since, it is only accepted in principle and is never defacto known in the present times in particular cases.


1. Only Jesus knows who is saved with the Baptism of desire.


2. We do not personally know any case in the past, present or future. We cannot say we know someone saved with the baptism of desire. None of us knows any person.


3. Since the baptism of desire is a concept, something accepted in principle, it cannot be real and repeatable like the baptism of water.


4. Since we can only accept it in principle(de jure)it does not conflict with the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus (outside the Church there is no salvation).The dogma Cantate Domino, Council of Florence 1441 indicates all non Catholics need Catholic Faith and the baptism of water for salvation. There are no exceptions since the baptism of desire or blood cannot be administered.


5. So everyone with no exception needs the baptism of water with Catholic Faith to go to Heaven and avoid Hell. If there is anyone saved with the baptism of desire it will be known to God only.


6. The Catholic Church has not retracted the dogma outside the church there is no salvation (Cantate Domino, Bull Unam Sanctam, Fourth Lateran Council) which is in accord with Ad Gentes 7,Vatican Council II ( all need baptism for salvation), Catechism of the Catholic Church 846( the Church is like a door in which all enter), 845 (The Church is like the only Ark of Noah that saves in the Flood and God wants all to be united in the Catholic Church), Dominus Iesus 20 etc.


7. So when the sedevacantists Most Holy Family Monastery (MHFM) claim that the baptism of desire is an exception to the dogma Cantate Domino it is irrational. For them the baptism of desire is not just a concept but a de facto, visible reality like the baptism of water. This is a hoax.


8. Similarly when the liberals who oppose the MHFM say Lumen Gentium 16 (on invincible ignorance) contradicts the dogma it is irrational. They (USCCB, Notification on Fr. Peter Phan etc) imply that we know cases in the present times saved in invincible ignorance. So for them it contradicts the dogma Cantate Domino. Yet we know that those saved in invincible ignorance can only be a concept, a principle we accept. It’s a hoax (by Catholic Answers, EWTN etc) to suggest that those saved in invincible ignorance, unknown to us, contradicts the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus or Ad Gentes 7, Vatican Council II.

http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2011/06/great-baptism-of-desire-hoax-from-most.html

Catholic Mission said...

FR. FRANCESCO GIORDANO AFFIRMS CANTATE DOMINO, COUNCIL OF FLORENCE

The Italian diocesan priest Fr. Francesco Giordano studying at the Holy Cross University, Rome and working for his doctorate on the subject extra ecclesiam nulla salus says he affirms the dogma Cantate Domino, Council of Florence 1441.The ex cathedra dogma says all non Catholics, specifying, Jews, Protestants and Orthodox Christians needing to formally enter the Catholic Church to avoid Hell, which has fire.

One can affirm Cantate Domino which indicates everyone with no exception, de facto needs to enter the Church and, at the same time believe de jure; in principle, a non Catholic can be saved implicitly (baptism of desire etc) and it would be known only to God.

However Fr. Giordano’s position on 1) Fr. Leonard Feeney and 2) Lumen Gentium 16, Vatican Council II is not clear. He seems to contradict the dogma on these two points. Though, he told me at the Church Santa Maria di Nazareth, Boccea, Rome that he affirms Cantate Domino.


Fr. Giordano, who has studied at the University of Chicago, is a young priest fluent in English and Italian. He received his Licentiate from the University of St. Thomas Aquinas, Rome and the subject of his thesis there was outside the church there is no salvation.

Like St. Thomas Aquinas if one uses the defacto-dejure analysis it is possible to hold the ‘rigorist interpretation’ of the dogma and also affirm the baptism of desire (Council of Trent) and so not be considered a heretic. It does not have to be an either-or position i.e. the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus or the baptism of desire.


Fr. Giordano believes Cantate Domino is compatible with Vatican Council II, Catechism of the Catholic Church and other Magisterial documents

CONTINUED
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2011/06/fr-franccesco-giordano-affirms-cantate.html#links

Catholic Mission said...

THERE IS NO BAPTISM OF DESIRE THAT WE CAN KNOW OF- Fr.George Puthoor

Second Catholic priest in Rome affirms Cantate Domino, Council of Florence, on extra ecclesiam nulla salus (outside the church there is no salvation)

A second priest in Rome within a few weeks affirms Cantate Domino, Council of Florence pointing out that there is no baptism of desire that we can personally know of.


A Rossiminian priest from South India Fr.George Puthoor said yesterday, Sunday morning, that there is no baptism of desire that we can know of.


He was speaking with me at the Basilica Santi Ambrogio e Carlo, Via del Corso, Rome where he was to offer Holy Mass in Italian at 12 p.m on Trinity Sunday.He gave me permission to quote him on this blog.

Since the cases of non-Catholic saved with the baptism of desire or in invincible ignorance are de facto unknown to us and can only be accepted in principle it does not contradict the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus he observed.

If there is no case of the baptism of desire or implicit faith that we know of then Vatican Council II does not contradict the dogma Cantate Domino.



The secular media hype and those of the liberals have claimed that Lumen Gentium 16, Vatican Council II has changed church teaching with refrence to extra ecclesiam nulla salus. Their claim is that every one does not have to enter the Church since there could be non Catholics saved with invincible ignorance or the baptism of desire.This is the claim of Wikipedia on the Internet, Catholic Answers and the Pontifical Universities and seminaries in Rome and abroad.They could quote Pope John Paul II on ‘silent apostasy’ in the Church, as if, they are not a part of it.

So when EWTN says everyone does not have to enter the Church to avoid Hell it is irrational. Since EWTN implies the baptism of desire is de facto known to us.

There is also no Magisterial text to support this position.
CONTINUED
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2011/06/there-is-no-baptism-of-desire-that-we.html#links

Catholic Mission said...

CONTINUED
Since we do not know any case of a person saved in invincible ignorance Fr. George Puthoor is getting rid of another modernist sacred cow- the lie about a priest, Leonard Feeney.


When Fr.Leonard Feeney said that there is no baptism of desire (that we know of) he was correct. There is no de facto baptism of desire that we can know of because of the very nature of baptism of desire. It is de facto only for God and never de facto known to us.


Fr.Leonard Feeney taught: everyone needed the baptism of water (given to adults with Catholic Faith) for salvation – and there were no exceptions, de facto.


He was affirming Cantate Domino. So how could he be excommunicated for heresy?


The Letter of the Holy Office 1949 refers to ‘the dogma’, the ‘infallible’ teaching. The dogma Cantate Domino indicates all Jews in Boston ( and other non Catholics) need to convert into the Catholic Church to avoid Hell.


With Vatican Council II and Fr.Leonard Feeney ‘out of the way’ we are back to the centuries-old intrpretation of extra ecclesiam nulla salus.
The centuries old teaching of the popes and saints is affirmed by the Catechism of the Catholic Church 846.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church 846(Outside the Church no Salvation) says all people need to enter the Church as ‘through a door’. This does not conflict with CCC846 also saying all those who are saved are saved through Jesus and the Church i.e. there are those 1) saved explicitly with Catholic Faith and the baptism of water and there are those saved 2) implicitly through the baptism of desire etc. and which is known only to God.


Fr. George Puthoor is the second Catholic priest in Rome who within a few weeks has affirmed Cantate Domino, which the Church has not retracted through any Magisterial document.. Earlier Fr. Francesco Giordano an Italian diocesan priest said the same.

Unlike these Catholic priests, the American sedevacantists Most Holy Family Monastery, NY, assume that the baptism of desire is known to us in the present times. They seem unaware that it can only be accepted in principle. It can only be a concept for us and real for God. So it does not contradict Cantate Domino. The sedevacantists reject the baptism of desire. This is heresy. They could be correct though, in saying that Catholic clergy, educational institutions and websites are in heresy and general apostasy on the issue of outside the church there is no salvation. .Since they deny Cantate Domino because they believe, like the sedevacantists, in a de facto baptism of deny known to us personally.
-Lionel Andrades
E-mail:lionelandrades10@gmail.com

Catholic Mission said...

Friday, October 7, 2011
LEGIONARY OF CHRIST PRIEST FR.RAFAEL PASCUAL AFFIRMS CANTATE DOMINO, COUNCIL OF FLORENCE
Dean of the Faculty of Philosophy, University Pontifical Regina Apostolorum, Rome in his office today morning said he was familiar with the text of the dogma Cantate Domino and he would endorse it in public.


Fr. Rafael Pascual said he and other Legionaries of Christ priests took an oath in Church to be faithful to the Magisterium of the Church and he showed me on his computer the text of this oath.


He took exception to a report (1) I e-mailed him which indicated that the Legionaries of Christ priests have not affirmed the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus.


Fr. Pascual who is the Director of the Master of Science and Faith Institute knew that the dogma on extra ecclesiam nulla salus, Cantate Domino (2) was in accord with Vatican Council II (LG 14,AG 7) (3), Dominus Iesus 20 (4) and other Magisterial text.
CONTINUD

Catholic Mission said...

continued
The Church also affirms it may be mentioned that non Catholics can be saved in invincible ignorance and the baptism of desire. However the Church Fathers, popes and Councils always new that these cases were implicit and so did not contradict the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus. They are only known to God and we would not meet any such case in person. Also no Magisterial text claims that they are explicitly known to us. -Lionel Andrades

1.


LEGIONARIES OF CHRIST PRIESTS IN ROME DO NOT DENY THAT THEY AFFIRM AND TEACH THE SECULAR, LIBERAL INTERPRETATION OF EXTRA ECCLESIAM NULLA
SALUS
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2010/12/legionaries-of-christ-priests-in-rome.html#links

2.


Pope Eugene IV, Cantate Domino (1441): "The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the "eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels" (Matthew 25:41), unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church."-, Wikipedia, extra ecclesiam nulla salus
CONTINUED

Catholic Mission said...

continued

3.


Basing itself upon Sacred Scripture and Tradition, it teaches that the Church, now sojourning on earth as an exile, is necessary for salvation. Christ, present to us in His Body, which is the Church, is the one Mediator and the unique way of salvation. In explicit terms He Himself affirmed the necessity of faith and baptism(124) and thereby affirmed also the necessity of the Church, for through baptism as through a door men enter the Church.-Lumen Gentium 14

Therefore, all must be converted to Him, made known by the Church's preaching, and all must be incorporated into Him by baptism and into the Church which is His body. For Christ Himself "by stressing in express language the necessity of faith and baptism (cf. Mark 16:16; John 3:5), at the same time confirmed the necessity of the Church, into which men enter by baptism, as by a door.-Ad Gentes 7


4.


Above all else, it must be firmly believed that “the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and baptism (cf. Mk 16:16; Jn 3:5), and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through baptism as through a door”. This doctrine must not be set against the universal salvific will of God (cf. 1 Tim 2:4); “it is necessary to keep these two truths together, namely, the real possibility of salvation in Christ for all mankind and the necessity of the Church for this salvation”.- Dominus Iesus 20
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2011/10/legionary-of-christ-priest-frrafael.html

Catholic Mission said...

Tuesday, May 1, 2012
IF THEY EXCOMMUNICATED FR.LEONARD FEENEY FOR SAYING THAT THERE WAS NO BAPTISM OF DESIRE THEN THEY MADE A MISTAKE.THERE ARE NO KNOWN EXCEPTIONS TO THE DOGMA.
An injustice was done to the priest and St.Benedict Center

The secular media and the liberals say Fr.Leonard Feeney was excommunicated for heresy. The Letter of the Holy Office 1949 does not say it was for heresy but for disobedience.Pope Pius XII in the Letter supported Fr.Leonad Feeney on doctrine.He was excommunicated for disobedience. He refused to go to Rome when summoned.He was also being opposed by the Cardinal Archbishop of Boston Richard Cushing.

The Letter of the Holy Office 1949 supported Fr.Leonard Feeney when it referred to ‘the dogma’, the ‘infallible’statement.(1) The text of the dogma is a literal interpretation of the thrice defined dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus.The dogma does not mention any explicit exception. So this was exactly what was taught by Fr.Leonard Feeney and the St.Benedict Center.

Some passages in the Letter however are critical of Fr.Leonard Feeney and the St.Benedict Center.(2) So if it was assumed that the baptism of desire etc was an explicit exception to the dogma then they were mistaken.There are no known cases of people saved with the baptism of desire etc. To claim so would be an objective,factual oversight.

The Letter of the Holy Office does not directly claim that those saved in invincible ignorance etc are explicit exceptions to the dogma or that we can know these cases. This was the error of the Archbishop of Boston and the media which supported him.

The Letter which was addresed to the Archbishop had technical irregularities and so could also have been a bishop-to-bishop document.It was hastily placed in the Denzinger by the liberals.
CONTINUED
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2012/05/if-they-excommunicated-frleonard-feeney.html

Catholic Mission said...

continued
The communities of Fr.Leonard Feeney today, recognized by the Catholic Church, know there are no exceptions to the dogma. This is common sense.

So if Fr.Leonard Feeney rejected the baptism of desire etc for whatever reason it is irrelevant. The baptism of desire etc is not issue with reference to the dogma.

For centuries the Church upheld the literal interpretation of the dogma alongwith implicit baptism of desire known ,of course, only to God.

It was Cardinal Richard Cushing and the Jesuits who created this false issue, that of the visible- to- us baptism of desire.

So we are back to the centuries old interpretation of the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus with the baptism of desire and invincible ignorance out of the way, as exceptions.

Jesus said those who do not believe will be condemned (Mk .16:16) and that every one needs the baptism of water for salvation. The baptism of water is given to adults in a community,the Church, the only Church Jesus founded (John 3:5) outside of which there is no salvation.

So we proclaim the Good News that Jesus saves in only one Church.We do not proclaim Jesus without the Church as is being done now.

Every one needs to enter the Catholic Church for salvation and not just those ‘who know’ about Jesus and the Church.We do not know anyone saved in invincible ignorance.So we cannot make the distinction between those who know and those who do not know. Anyway we wouldn’t know the difference since only Jesus can judge.

We also cannot say that there are some people in 2012 who will be saved without the baptism of water and who will remain with Original Sin on their soul.We don’t know any such exception.

It means all Hindus, Buddhists, Jews, Muslims and other non Catholics, including Christians communities and churches, are oriented to Hell unless they convert into the Catholic Church.God the Father wants all people to be united in the Catholic Church (CCC 845) the Church is the only Ark of Noah that saves in the flood.(CCC 845 , St.Thomas Aquinas etc).Salvation is available for all but to receive it all need to enter the Church.(Dominus Iesus 20).

All who are saved are saved through Jesus and Church (CCC 846) which does not negate all needing to enter the Church, for salvation, as 'through a door' (CCC 846, AG 7).

So now we can proclaim the literal interpretation of the dogma outside the church no salvation and also implicit baptism of desire, it is no more having to choose between the one and the other. –Lionel Andrades

1.
Now, among those things which the Church has always preached and will never cease to preach is contained also that infallible statement by which we are taught that there is no salvation outside the Church.
However, this dogma must be understood in that sense in which the Church herself understands it. For, it was not to private judgments that Our Savior gave for explanation those things that are contained in the deposit of faith, but to the teaching authority of the Church.-Letter of the Holy Office

2.
From what has been said it is evident that those things which are proposed in the periodical , fascicle 3, as the genuine teaching of the Catholic Church are far from being such and are very harmful both to those within the Church and those without.

From these declarations which pertain to doctrine, certain conclusions follow which regard discipline and conduct, and which cannot be unknown to those who vigorously defend the necessity by which all are bound' of belonging to the true Church and of submitting to the authority of the Roman Pontiff and of the Bishops "whom the Holy Ghost has placed . . . to rule the Church" (Acts 20:28).

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